WARNING Sherwood now Hostle to Caching .. Got Arested today

[releejr]

I once was told by a prominent Arkansas Geocacher that they knew for a fact that it was easier to get a pound of forgiveness than to get an ounce of permission.
That is wisdom that is hard to argue with.
And, it works only if the geocacher is friendly and has no "chip" on their shoulder, or shows no "attitude' towards anyone who may ask what they are doing.
People will always wonder what you are doing, some will ask. Some will demand to know. Example: property owner, neighbor, police, ect..
Those who have a legitimate reason to ask will become more insistent at each request.
The cacher may well become more defensive at each request.
This escalation on each side can cause a good situation to go bad if anger enters the picture.
Remember you, the cacher, are the only one who knows what is going on and you set the tone, pace and demeanor ot this encounter.
Forgiveness will not be forthcoming if you let anger creep into your situation.
And since you are depending on a check mark in a box at a website to guarante your legitimacy at the location, common sence says "be diplomatic".
If you are in this situation and you are less than friendly and forthright, you may well be your own worst enemy.
It is your responsibility to dispell any wories that others may have about you being there.

Mountainborn,
I know for a fact you do not like me or my posts, and I am sure that you believe I took the angry road here, and I admit at one time in my life I would have. I am 6' 2" and weigh 330lbs, I am easely 2 times the size that that Exxon owner. But, whether you believe me or not other than the FIRST excuse of "I am just wandering" (my lame attempt to protect the cache, at least that was what I was thinking at the time) I was quite calm and friendly and did my level best to explain Geocaching, granted I probably did a poor job of it. I still am fairly new to this and I am not exactly a people person, so I can readly believe that I might of done a poor job explaining, BUT I did not lose my temper or get a chip on my shoulder, until I got in the car to go home 3 hours later. So my fourm messages probably held more anger than they should have and for that I am sorry. I have tried for years to control my anger in all situations, since I first realized I sometimes get short with people.
I am very proud of myself and how I handled myself with the owner and the officer, and I am equally ashamed at the way some of my inital posts sounded

No real need to apologise releejr, most people feel the need to vent after they've been screwed over. Especially after you've held it in during the stressful event.

AR_kayaker

[Team_Pink]

I think if you start asking owners for a signature you're going to start getting less permissions. Just my opinion....

But it would be a clean cache!

[SteveBrown]

I am sorry for putting him in this position.

This is no longer fun.

topkitty98
aka Beth

I cached Sherwood in December and saw no problem with topkitty98's caches or any other caches in sherwood. They were great caches like hundredes of other cities we have cached.

[Jamie2]

Hello all, I lurk here occasionally and someone that knows I work in Sherwood alerted me to this thread. I must say that while this is unfortunate I am not totally surprised. I operate a business in Sherwood and have for 9 years now. I'm not all that surprised because my experience with the Sherwood police hasn't been all that positive.

That large parking lot is connected to more than a dozen business' and at any given time people can be seen sitting and eating in their cars as there are three restaurants right there around the parking lot. This is especially the case around lunch time. Now I understand that all property is owned by someone or some entity but all those people sitting in their cars in empty area's of that lot trying to enjoy their lunch are trespassing as well, no? I know they didn't go get someone's permission before they parked there. I suspect the only reason this poor guy was arrested is because the owner of the Exxon station has complained repeatedly because he's suffered repeated damage and theft to his property. The police probably felt like needed to take someone in. You know, make the Exxon station owner happy that he's getting results. It's either that or an attitude was taken with them which the OP has repeatedly stated he didn't do. But I could easily see them doing this even if the OP had been real nice about it. Again, my experience hasn't been positive.

What makes this ironic for me is that about 3-4 weeks ago I decided to look for the Sherwood cache that was right behind the police station at the train. I've only done 1 other in Sherwood but I'm usually too busy at work. I picked up some lunch and went to that little parking lot near the train. People were fishing at that little pond/stream there and others were walking around - it was active because it was pretty warm and real nice outside. After finishing off my lunch listening to Rush Limbaugh, I got out and started walking around the train. I guess I looked suspicious dressed in business clothes and holding a GPSr because a plain clothes COP pulled up and asked what I was doing. I explained it and showed him the GPSr. He had several questions for me making feal like a criminal. He said he had seen others here and wondered if it was more than just idle curiousity about the train. I half expected to be arrested because the attitude was shoot first ask questions later. He finally left and so did I. I haven't been back.

I have no love for Sherwood and just closed on a larger building off I-440 in NLR so I'll be moving in a few months.

Good luck to the OP. If you need support at a hearing, please let us know. I'll come and help if possible.

[NatureFish]

Please focus on the important and controllable part here - a cacher was arrested for seeking a cache that was placed without permission.

We can't know about the cacher's attitude or demeanor, the gas station operators behavior, the police department and its officers' attitudes, what was, could have or should have been said or done - all that is useless speculation and totally beside the point - nice to talk about because it takes the focus off of a failing many of us share... we don't like to ask permission.

The cacher in this case has zero explaining to do, he does not need to justify or apologize for his actions - the fact is he got busted because he trusted that the hider had permission.

Let's focus on that and see if we can't learn from it - commit to the geocaching community that no one will ever go through this at one of your caches because they will all be hidden with permission!

Ed

[nonnipoppy]

I feel for both the cacher and the hider in this situation.

Most of the time that we have been approached while caching the truth has served us well.

When caching at one time near Mountain Home with Golf of Golfnutz we needed to search for a cache that was at one end of a small bridge. Unfortunately there was a fishermuggle at the other end.

While poppy searched Golf talked to the muggle for distraction. He explained that we were playing a GAME based on the internet. It required a GPSr and we were searching for some coordinates. (true) He implied that they were written somewhere IF we had gotten the game information correct. (kinda true) I feel comfortable with this explanation and will use it if needed.

Acting as if we know what we are doing, but are unsure if we are in the correct location, is a great cover story. We would ask the approacher, quite innocently, if there was a problem. If that answer was affirmative we would depart immediately. Playing a bumbling fool is not that far from poppy's character anyway.

We have been afforded the opportunity to discuss what we are doing with 4 or 5 law enforcement officers while caching. Each one of them had an open attitude and was courteous. One in Russellville helped me look for a cache. We did not find it but we got his email addy and sent pics after we finally did located it.

We have cached in Sherwood and we will cache there again when we get the opportunity. We are not second guessing either one, we feel for BOTH the cacher and the cache owner in this situation.....poppy

[Jamie2]

Let's focus on that and see if we can't learn from it - commit to the geocaching community that no one will ever go through this at one of your caches because they will all be hidden with permission!
Ed

Sorry to participate in useless speculation, Ed. I thought this was an open forum. I wasn't trying to distract from the requirement that permission be obtained. I was discussing what I know about that area.

So we should get something in writing from the owner, I assume? That's really the only way to do it, right? I mean there are several scenarios where verbal permission alone can fail. For example, property changes hands and the new owner may have no clue that the old owner gave special permission for a hidden cache to be placed on the property. How is the cache hidder supposed to know the property changed hands? And then what if the owner gives permission but then isn't around when someone gets picked up for criminal trespassing. And then what about large parking lots that cojoin multiple business's where the hidder gets permission from the property owner but perhaps one of the business manager's fails to get informed. That business manager calls the police .... I mean, you can go on and on.

Sure seems like each cache would need written permission within the cache and then I suppose the individual approving the cache should review the written form prior to approving it?

[NatureFish]

From the Groundspeak Cache Listing Guidelines/Requirements published at http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx:

Off-limit (Physical) Caches

By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location. However, if we see a cache description that mentions ignoring "No Trespassing" signs (or any other obvious issues), your listing may be immediately archived.

Caches may be quickly archived if we see the following (which is not inclusive):

* Caches on land maintained by the U.S. National Park Service or U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (National Wildlife Refuges)
* Caches that are buried. If a shovel, trowel or other “pointy” object is used to dig, whether in order to hide or to find the cache, then it is not appropriate.
* Caches that deface public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a clue or a logging method.
* Caches placed on archaeological or historical sites. In most cases these areas are highly sensitive to the extra traffic that would be caused by vehicles and humans.
* Caches hidden in close proximity to active railroad tracks. In general we use a distance of 150 ft but your local area’s trespassing laws may be different. All local laws apply.
* Caches near or on military installations.
* Caches near or under public structures deemed potential or possible targets for terrorist attacks. These include but are not limited to highway bridges, dams, government buildings, elementary and secondary schools, and airports.

There may be some exceptions. If your cache fits within one of the above areas, please explain in notes to the reviewer section of the cache page. For example, if you are given permission to place a cache on private property, indicate it in the notes for the benefit of both the reviewer and people seeking out the cache.

In addition, there may be local regulations already in place for certain types of parks in your region (state parks, county preserves, etc.). There are many local caching organizations that would be able to help you out with those regulations. If your area does not have a local caching organization please contact your local reviewer for information on regulations. If you have complied with special regulations by obtaining a permit, please state this on your cache page or in a ‘note to the reviewer’.

If the Geocaching.com web site is contacted and informed that your cache has been placed inappropriately, your cache may be archived or disabled and you may be contacted with any information provided by the individual or organization who contacted us.

I am not here to tell you how to play your game, nor point fingers, accuse or excuse - my role is very straight-forward:

- If your listing meets our guidelines I publish it, if it doesn't I don't.

- If it does today but doesn't tomorrow I archive it.

Simple.

If I engage in conversations such as this with the community it is solely to help the game, not control, anger or inflame.

As far as speculation about the what-ifs, that's easy too - you are responsible 24/7 for your hides, are expected to maintain them and to know what's going on that may affect them.

If it has permission today but loses it tommorrow you will need to go fetch it. Not a lot of logic or debate required here.

The guideline excerpt quoted above, as Forest Gump said, is all I got to say about that.

Ed

[walkingshadow]

I think we have an excellent opportunity here. We can take this negative and try to bring about a positive response. I have noticed there are two possible gatherings coming up, the campout and Grandkid has offered to get us a pavillion. We could use these to invite several people from the community to promote geocaching. We could give them an opportunity to meet geocachers and see what a great group of people we really are. I am thinking we could invite police and fed/state park representitives and could get an article in the paper. What do you think.


walkingshadow