Well when I get ready to archive mins anyone who wishes to find them can go along and score the smilie right before I pull the cache. I'm not sure about all the ranger districts but I would think that they would have to follow whatever the main office for the forrest decides.
Guest
It's been several days without any new developments on this vitally important issue and I have a few questions for the board members or whoever has been assigned to handle the matter.
1. Have there been any new developments? Has anyone spoken with any ONF or USDA personnel concerning this issue? If so, who was contacted?What was discussed" What if any results came of it? What future discussions are in the offing?
2. I've seen no mention on the forums of a board decision concering who will be the official liason with ONF and USDA or how AGA intends to address the problem. Have I missed it or does it not yet exist? If it does not yet exist, when can we expect it to be created?
3. I've also seen nothing like a thread where the board solicits the opinions of AGA members as to exactly what course of action and what "solutions" AGA cachers might find acceptable/unacceptable. Again, is there such and I've missed it or does it not exist? If not, when will it be created?
While this issue may not seem terribly important to some cachers living in other parts of the state, it is of supreme importance to those of us who live in the West Central Arkansas area.
For those of us specifically who live in the Hot Springs area, it is crucial beyond hyperbole. We are already heavily handicapped by the borders of the Hot Springs National Park, having the ONF effectively placed "off limits" to us leaves us very little viable caching ground. With these considerations in mind, I hope my rather demanding tone is at least understandable.
In short, most of my questions boil down to two questions.
Bearing in mind that every day this "regulation" remains in effect, the more bureaucratically entrenched it becomes, does the board have a plan to deal with, (remedy!) this problem?
If so, what is this plan and how soon can we expect to see it implemented?
Anxiously awaiting your response,
Ken
Website Admin
Voting Member
We have been talking to Chuck Walla and some other reviewers from Geocaching.com. Our situation in Arkansas appears to be a unique one. For this reason, it is of utmost importance that we have accurate information. The Board will be ready to make a recommendation as soon as we receive the information we need to plan our course of action.Originally Posted by Team Panda
We will make every effort to share information with you as it comes in.
While this issue is an important one, I simply cannot make promises that it will be resolved in a week or a month. Truth is, ArkGeo may not be able to affect any "remedy" for it at all. We have no authority in this situation, and we cannot control the policies of Geocaching.com or the NF.
What we can do is to give it our best shot. We can share our concerns and speak as a group. And I can promise that the Board will do do its best to serve and represent the membership in this endeavour.
As for the membership feedback, I encourage members to use this thread to voice your opinion or you are welcome to send a message to me personally. Thank you for all the input you have sent so far! Keep them coming!
Wayne
I get my directions from above.
View my profile
CacheAddict
Voting Member
We are also making efforts to compile information from other districts to get a clear overall picture of policy as it stands elsewhere. We felt it would effective to do this so that it can be compared along with the info we receive from other reviewers in the rest of the nation who have national forests in their areas.
CacheMaster
Voting Member
Cooler heads than mine need to ponder this situation and I don't know how much logic or common sense will soke into the heads of the Powers that Be at the National Forrest Service. But It seems to me that we need to first find out who the Powers That Be really are. Who made the decision to charge the fee for Geocaches? Was this decision arbitrarily made and by whom and why didn't the geocaching community have an opportunity to explain our position and what we do for the benefit of the National Forrest before this “Final” decision was made?
If someone with a diplomatic demeanor could actually talk to someone in authority and tell them about the CITO events we conduct and how we teach environmental awareness to the young and older people we encounter and the instructions our members have given to the Boy Scouts, the young hunters such as the Jakes group and how this benefits the National Forrest Service. If we could explain to them that Geocaching is not a commercial endeavor and that it is composed of the entire segment of the population including children, young parents, and the older retired people and that a fee for placing caches could seriously impact the benefits the NFS receive as most of us do not have the financial means to pay for placing caches. To tell them about the safety issue of teaching young hunters, hikers, and NFS users how to use the modern navigational equipment such as the GPS to avoid becoming lost in the woods. How this could save lives and money the NFS spends to rescue lost hikers . Why should we have to pay for our good deeds in helping the NFS?
A lot of words to say that we need to try to explain to the NFS Powers That Be that we are actually helping them get responsible , environmentally friendly, and safety conscious people to use the NFS.. Nothing we do has been harmful but just the opposite, our actions have only been helpful and beneficial to the goals of the NFS.
Well Wayne, I guess since you replied directly to my post and no one else from the Board has challenged your authority to do so, you're the guy I need to talk to.
First, I'd like to thank you for that wonderful and very skillfully written post. A less observant reader might actually read it and some how, be led to believe you actually addressed my questions
But that reader would be mistaken. In fact, you went to a great deal of trouble to write a lot and say nearly nothing at all. You managed, against incredible odds, to make quite a few statements with practically no meaningful content. This was done so skillfully, I can not believe it was an accident. I must instead, acknowledge the obvious. You're stonewalling.
I'm extremely curious as to exactly why you feel the need to do this but for now, I'll skip the conjecture and address your non-comments individually.
Yes, we already know this. See earlier comments in this thread.
What information? One can not simply seek information and then form a plan of action. One must have at least some idea of what one wishes to do before seeking information. Otherwise, one has no way of knowing what information one may require. This is the nature of planning.
My question to the board was simple. What is your plan? What do you the board, intend to do about the ONF situation?
Will you make every effort to share information or will you actually share information? I only ask because, you apparently believe there may be some currently unforseen factor(s) which would prevent this sharing of information. Otherwise, there is no need for the qualifying statement "we will make every effort."
Neither I nor anyone else in this thread has attempted to extract any promises from you or the Board of Directors. We simply want to know what you are currently doing and what you intend to do in the forseeable future. We do not want to basically know what you are doing, we want to know exactly what you are doing and furthermore, we have a right to know.
Yes, we the members are fully aware you do not control Geocaching.com or the National Forest Service. We are also aware you do not control the price of dairy products, the weather, or the actions of Islamic Fundamentalists. Have no fear, neither I nor any other members will hold you responsible for those things which are obviously and patently out of your control. However, I am very disappointed you chose to spend more time talking about what you can't do than what you can do. It demonstrates a very defeatist attitude, which is exactly what we don't need right now.
Wayne, I don't believe we've met face to face but let me assure you, had you made the above statement to me in person, I'd have laughed out loud. That's really the only response such political doubletalk deserves.
Yes, that's ever so nice, isn't it?
Except it does little good to voice our concerns and ask for information when all we get in return are meaningless platitudes and stonewalling.
The ONF situation is of dire importance to pretty much every cacher west of Benton. It's our playground. I currently have six active caches on GC.com. Of those six, five are on ONF land. Under the current regulation, I'd have to pay $285.00 a year to keep them there. Obviously, I'm not about to do that.
I live very near Hot Springs, I have been to the ONF office in the Federal building on many occacions. I would love to go down there tomorrow, walk into the office, and have a sit-down to discuss the issue with those in charge.
But I can't do that!
I can't do that because you, the "Board of Directors" have already initiated contact with the ONF. If I walk in there, the only thing they need to say to cut me off at the ankles is: "We're dealing with the AGA Board of Directors, go talk to them." and my battleship is sunk. I'm done. Stuck with nowhere to go, no further avenue of attack, nothing.
You have taken the ability to deal with the situation out of my hands and assumed it as your own. Since you have seen fit to do this, I feel we Arkansas geocachers, are will within our rights to expect, if not outright demand, you do at least a better job of it than we could.
Long ago, I objected to the creation of a "Steering Committee" for exactly this and other reasons. At that time, you Wayne, and several others, insisted my concerns were misplaced, that I was just "stirring the pot" and that the fearless Steering Committee would be there to stand tall and fight the good fight for we the geocachers of Arkansas.
Now the time is here. The "good fight" is at hand, and you're already preparing us for failure by saying you may not be able to do anything.
Pardon me for being so blunt, but if this is the case, what's the point in having a "Board of Directors" at all?
I hope you can understand why I am so distressed about your resoundingly hollow response to my questions. It is not my intent to insult you but rather to make you understand the importance of this issue. Because despite your protestations to the contrary, your attitude screams of apathy. I wish only to impress upon you and the Board, the fact that the efforts the board is currently making appear to be minimal. Indeed, minimal is a generous term. From here, it looks like you have no intention of making any meaningful effort to fix this situation.
If it helps to make the situation seem a bit less intimidating and impossible to you, consider this.
You are not fighting the Federal Government, you are not facing the combined might of the entire USDA. You are merely attempting to get a favorable ruling to reverse a bureaucratic decision made by a single low level functionary
That really shouldn't be the herculean task you seem to think it is.
So, bearing all this in mind, I ask these questions again.
What does the Board feel would be the optimal solution to the ONF problem?
What does the Board intend to do in order to achieve this solution?
Thank you,
Ken
PS,
Before anyone jumps in and says something about my being so negative and so willing to take potshots at the Board without offering any suggestions or solutions of my own, rest assured, the reason I want answers to these questions so very badly is so that I can do exactly that. But I can't even do that without having at least some idea of what the Board intends to do.
Somewhere along the line the distinction between right and privilege has become rather fuzzy.
CacheAddict
This is the person whom needs to convinced that we are not trying to rape the land. All that we want to do is place a few caches in a Beautiful part of our state and enjoy the National Forest.
I am sure that the search is on for this person and the Board will do their best to convince them of our intentions. The Board convinced the Arkansas State Parks to allow Geocaching and I have faith that the same will happen with this problem.
I am neither a skillful reader or writer and I do have friends on the board. I have the utmost faith in their judgement and abilities. You may not agree with the path they take, as long as it gets you where you want to go.
I have friends in overalls whose friendship I would not swap for the favor of the kings of the world.
Thomas A. Edison
Sir, in spite of repeated reading of this post it makes no sense whatsoever. Can you please clarify???
AR-HICK "You may not agree with the path they take, as long as it gets you where you want to go."
Agreed, however, should THEY not know which path to take, how can WE know what they do? Most especially when they refuse to be open, honest and answer members' questions.
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