Ouachita National Forest Caching

[RGS]

I'm obviously not going to get involved in this discussion, but want to give you a little fuel for your battle.

Being in Missouri (St. Louis), most of our National Forest is Mark Twain, which encompasses most of the open land in the ozarks. The main office is located in Rolla, MO on I-44. Our contact for MTNF is Nancy Feakes, Recreation Manager, Mark Twain National Forest, 573-364-4621 x472.

She is very "pro-geocaching" and would probably be a good person to contact. Currently no permits are required nor time limits on placements.

The basic rules are:

• Cache should not be placed in sensitive areas such as:
  Wildermess.
  Archaeological sites
  Caves
  Dangersous areas
  Just about anywhere else is fair game

All she wants is some basic cache information:

• Where the cache is located
  How it is hidden
  What type of container
  A link to the cache page

She may be a good person to have on your side as a contact.

RGS-St. Louis

[QuartzCachers]

Thanks RGS! That is helpful input! Someone who is with us, and is on "the inside" would be a great ally, I would think.
I think, after reading OEnavigators well researched and written latest post, that this organization should have a position of liason, for the National Forests. Maybe one for both. (yes I realize that there are three, but I think the Ozark and St. Francis are run from the same office)
I can think of several viable candidates to fill these posts.(how about OEnavigator, for one) We have a load of talent in our ranks, and this could be very hlepful in resolving this issue, and help to avoid any such unpleasantness in the future.

[SJClimber]

We have a friend who does arbitration for the Feds on Federal land out west. She is to be in LRA Memorial Weekend so I'll pass this by her and get some input. Interesting conundrum which can likely be resolved.

[oenavigator]

[Team Panda]

Just a thought here...

Do you (the board) realize the longer you (the board) wait, the more impressive your plan is going to have to be?

As of tomorrow, it will have been two weeks since word was first posted on this website. I'd say two weeks is more than enough time for you (the board!) to come up with an effective and workable plan.

So, let's hear it please.

[Team Panda]

[Team_Pink]

I think we need to understand that Arkgeo is a young organization. Infant in fact. I think now that Arkgeo is an official (501c) organization, has elections, etc. things like this will be part of the normal activities of the leadership. I'm not saying that things couldn't have been handled better but the organization is really just now starting to get off the ground. I was extremely disappointed in the decision by the steering committee's refusal to officially support a meeting of parks and recreational professionals from all over the state. I think things are now going in a direction where we will see Arkgeo leading in initiatives like this.

Any small organization that is purely voluntary will always have challenges keeping leadership fresh and energized. If you are passionate about the organization's responsibilities offer to be part of the solution by volunteering to serve in a leadership position or as committee member and change the YOU to WE.

[Parrot Parents]

Pretty sentiments, Team Pink, however..... so far, the fledgling "Steering Committee" hasn't even asked for input, or listened to ideas. They sit atop their perceived ivory tower - in an area unaffected by this ruling - not wanting to bother (or dirty their hands?) on a matter that doesn't affect them personally. As a person who will soon be living in the affacted area, I am astounded and disappointed that no one from the affected area has even been contacted to be asked their opinion!

I belong to BC Cachers, and trust me, they do NOT work in this secretive, slipshod, cliquish manner - and their area of coverage is *huge* compared to this one. Arkgeo is a bitter diappointment.

[searcykid]

I noticed that ArkGeo has over 1600 registered members. I know that a lot of them are not active at the present time or just signed up to spam or are out of state members but we should have at least close to a 1000 members that are still interested in this organization.

I know that we are informed by a post on this website when and where the board is going to meet but since most of us have not seen fit to attend these meetings or given our input into the discussions or sent an email to the board as to ideas we feel should be discussed and a lot of us have not exercised our right to vote and choose the board members then it is improper now to criticise them for not doing what we want them to do.

Instead of complaining in this forum, maybe we should have a meeting with the Board. Anyone that has an idea, complaint, or wants to find a solution should be there.

I feel that some changes by the board and by us the members are in order. First of all, I, ME, SEARCYKID and YOU, (all the other members) should become more involved in who our representatives are, what they are doing as a board, and find out their ideas and what their thoughts are on what they should be doing as the directors of the Arkansas Geocachers Association. WE SHOULD ATTEND THE BOARD MEETINGS. We should be prepared to offer ideas, suggestions, or at least get informed what is happening. For instance , had you heard about the meeting that the Forrest Service was having to discuss geocaching but did not inform anyone?. Had the board members heard about it but did not choose to react? I personally did not know about it . Mayby the ArkGeo board members had not heard about it. Maybe this situation with the Forrest Service will be a wake up call to us and the board as to what we need to do in the future.
Second of all, THE BOARD, should post on this websiite everything that was discussed and decided at each meeting. If two members of the board talk about an idea for the ArkGeo, then this idea should be floated on this website for the general membership to see and discuss.
THE BOARD, I believe should send out emails to all the registered members whenever the board is going to meet, email the members the slate of candidates for new board positions, email the members when the election is over, informing each member of the results. In other words keep in touch more personally with the members through email rather than expecting them to log on each day to the ArkGeo website. This could be done as a NEWSLETTER. I don't know about the expense of sending and email to 1600 people but it seems it would be a good use of any monies ARKGEO has to develope such a database to help keep the membership informed and active.


We now have a slate of candidates for us to choose two new members.
If we are expecting these new board members to represent us in discussions with all the entities that might be contrary to Geocaching, then we need to get acquainted with the candidates and find out for ourselves their abilities and capabilities. Do they have charisma (charm), do they have knowledge, do they have the proper temperament, do they have the time, do they really have the fire and desire to go and do things a lot of us want done but feel we just do not have the abilities necessary to do ourselves. Many of us get tongue tied when talking in public or to people we do not know, so (are the candidates good speakers?), many of us are too shy to make contact with strangers, so (are the candidates personable and friendly and outgoing?), many of us do not have the temperament to talk about controversial subjects, so (do the candidates have good self control under stress?), and most of us do not have the time to do the business of the organization, so (Do the candidates have the time to put into this work of the organization?).
Since the election ends soon, it is probably too late to have a Candidate Meeting Event this election but maybe we should think about such an event in the future.
In the meantime I will not complain about the past but will try to make my thoughts and ideas about the future evident to the Board.

[Team Panda]

There are some excellent comments from all parties here. I'd like to address a few of them in no particular order and make a few comments myself.

First, I'd like to address the use of the terms "Steering Committee" and "Board of Directors." People seem to be using them interchangably and I'm sure that's because our "Leadership" (ahem) started out as a "Steering Committee" and some time in the past couple of years, morphed into a "Board of Directors."

Perhaps most folks don't know the difference between the two.

To put it simply, a "Steering Committee" gathers data, organizes items for discussion, and then presents those items and data to the Governing Body.

A Board of Directors IS the Governing Body!

I'd say there's a rather distinct difference. Did you know you were being governed?

Team Pink,

We haven't spoken before so first, I guess "Howdy!" is in order.
Second, I have to disagree with you. The AGA is not a "young" organization. I've been a member for almost four years and they were just talking about electing the first "Steering Committee" shortly after I joined up.

Four years is a long time. If you start looking at other geocaching organizations, there are some half the age of the AGA but far more advanced in pretty much every way. I'm not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing, I'm just pointing out what IS. Personally, the less organized things are, the happier I generally am. Organization means "Leadership" and "Leadership" is exactly what's causing this rotten, horrible, stinking mess we're dealing with right now.

For example...

I was extremely disappointed in the decision by the steering committee's refusal to officially support a meeting of parks and recreational professionals from all over the state.

Listen to yourself. Their DECISION?

Who gave them the power to make any decision for YOU? I certainly didn't. If you search back to my earliest posts on this forum, I warned that EXACTLY this sort of thing was in the future if they chose to elect a "Steering Committe." At first, I was calmly and pleasantly assured that this would never ever happen, and then later, as I continued to resist, I was pretty much treated like an idiot or a raving maniac who just wouldn't listen to reason.

And yet here we are today, waiting with hands tied, for THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS to make a decision for us.

And while we wait, they are maintaining total radio silence, refusing to answer even the most basic questions, while the AGA quietly jitters apart.

Look, I have friends on that board. People I've cached with, broken bread with, and come to really and sincerely care for. But I'm not dealing with them. For all I know, I'm not being allowed to deal with them. NONE of them have posted in this thread. Why is that? Has "The Board" given them orders to stay out of it? Are they being bullied into remaining silent? Do they actually agree with this policy of ignoring the membership?

I don't know and have no way of knowing. Either way, I have no choice but to assume that for whatever reason, they have no voice, power, or authority within their own board.

So maybe we're not even dealing with the whole board. Maybe we're stuck dealing with some faction within the board who has some how managed to "seize power" and is now refusing to lower itself to speak to us peons.

Voting?
VOTING?

Are you kidding?

I voted in the past and look what it got us.

Silence.
Inaction
Arrogance.

Yeah, let me rush to the nearest voting booth so I can get some more of that!

Want to have some fun? Go read the bylaws of the AGA and see if you can find ANYTHING, ANYTHING at all, that says the Board of Directors is in any way accountable to the membership. See if there is one thing which will allow us the members to dispute or overturn any decision they make. No thanks, I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I don't care to give anyone that much power over any aspect of my life.

If it weren't for this ONF issue and the interference from the BOARD, I'd quit this group today and never darken it's doorstep again. Sadly, there is an important issue which must be dealt with and the Board of Directors has inserted itself deeply into that issue, forcing me to attempt to deal with them.

And yet all my questions are met with stony silence


Parrot Parents.

When you say the Board hasn't asked for input, you're not really being fair. They did ask for input earlier in this thread.

They've just refused to respond to any of it.

You are correct however, when you say that AGA is a bitter disappointment. I certainly expected far better than this.

searcykid,

You raise some excellent points.

There SHOULD be a newsletter.
The Board SHOULD post DETAILED MINUTES of every meeting they have.

But there's a whole bucket full of things the Board SHOULD be doing but isn't. In fact, as far as I can see, the only thing the Board is doing these days is maintaining this website and ignoring the living hell out of it's membership.

I don't think "getting to know your representatives" is going to fix that.

I know David Spicer. (paris1time) He's a GREAT guy! I have nothing but wonderful things to say about him and his family. Should I vote for him?

What's he ever done to me?

I ask that question because if he's elected to the Board, he's not going to be allowed to do anything FOR me, so why should I commit the huge unkindness of voting to put him in a position where he has responsibility but no power or authority? Hell, at this point, if I had to vote in the elections, I'd try to find people I didn't like! I wouldn't DO that to my friends!

As far as you, me, or any other member calling a meeting, I suggest you go read the Bylaws. THERE IS NO PROVISION FOR THE MEMBERS TO CALL A MEETING SPECIAL, GENERAL, OR OTHERWISE, OF THE AGA.

There is no provision for the membership to call for anything.

Folks, look...

This has gone on for far too long, I'm tired of trying to be reasonable with the unreasonable people running the Board of Directors. I'm just going to lay it on the line.

We've been had.

We've been sold a bill of goods.

It's become painfully obvious to me that he AGA isn't being "governed" by the "Board of Directors." I refuse to believe the people on that board who are my friends would stand still for this sort of treatment towards the members if they had any power to stand up against it.

I'm not going to name names, but come on now, THINK about it. You know these people at least as well as I do. Do you REALLY believe _____ would sit still and remain silent while you're begging for answers? If he had any choice at all, don't you think he'd stand up and say something?

Yeah, I think so too.

So, who's running the AGA? I believe its being governed by a small power clique' within the Board of Directors. I also believe, that as long as the persons in that clique' are involved with AGA in any way, this is exactly the kind of treatment we can expect to get from "The Board."

And they're not going anywhere.

So now I'm tired of typing. I'm tired of being the one who has to ask all the questions and say all the things that nobody else wants to say. If I'd wanted to do this sort of thing, I'd have nominated myself for election to the Board. I thought a "Steering Committee" was a bad idea four years ago and I think a "Board of Directors" is a worse one now.

Now here's what you need to think about...

WITH THE TECHNOLOGY AVAILABLE TO US, WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO FORM THAT MOST PERFECT OF GOVERNMENTS, THE DIRECT DEMOCRACY! WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO SET UP AND EFFECTIVELY RUN AN ORGANIZATION WHO'S EVERY DECISION, EVERY MOVE, IS VOTED ON BY ANY AND ALL MEMBERS WHO WISH TO VOTE!

NO LEADERS
NO FOLLOWERS
NO INSIDERS
NO OUTSIDERS
NO "POPULAR KIDS"
NO "UGLY KIDS"

SO WHY ISN'T IT BEING RUN THAT WAY?