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AR-HICK
12-09-2007, 06:36 PM
Being a cacher that tries very hard to write a something for most of the caches I have found. Is it wrong of me wanting to put in my description that I will delete a “copy and pasted” log. I have noticed this more since I have gotten out more caches. I have caches that I don’t mind a simple log, but on some caches I expect more than “easy find of spotted it right away” when it may have taken you 10 minutes to locate it. I know there are a lot more caches now, than when I found my first cache. I feel that is no reason to rob the cache owner of the payment deserving of the cache you found. When you find 50 in a day and the are mostly p-n-g’s I don’t expect much and I am guilty of writing a generic log when I can’t remember anything about the cache. I don’t copy and paste!
My Question to all is:
Do I have the right to delete any log as the cache owner, Should I warn an unsuspecting cacher of this in my description? Or send them a e-mail asking to edit their log?


I know this is an old subject, but it hasn’t gone away and I just want new cachers to be aware of caching edicate. Please let me know your opinion.

AR-HICK

SJClimber
12-09-2007, 08:50 PM
Well, since there are all sorts of cachers, you might expect the occasional power cacher or lazy cacher who will paste the same message for those he/she has found that day. Noticed that yesterday when logging finds Rich and I had down 103/215 above Harmony. There are just folks that do this or just state they found the cache. I, as you, am not particularily happy about the behavior, but it will continue. I agree if you expect a more detailed log, it may be worth suggesting this on the cache page. You can then ask for an edit or delete it if desirous. Frustrating behavior.

oenavigator
12-10-2007, 01:42 AM
:D December 10 "LazyCacher"
#15 of 50. TNLNSL TFTC

I've read so many of those. We always try to write something about our experience while hunting even the park and grabs. I've had easy hunts turn into mini adventures. I've even, in extreme cases, actually written a rough draft before logging the find or finds.

Sharing that experience with the cache owner is what ties the community together. It's their reward for taking the time and going to the effort to place a cache to be found. It also lets other cachers know of any problems that need to be avoided while hunting a cache and also good points about the cache.

There is a great article at Geocacher U (http://www.geocacher-u.com/) that is great for helping cachers in writing better logs. If all else fails make something up. Check out my log for GC1614Z (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=c4da6b31-cab3-48a7-ab0a-aa4e19221b19&log=y&decrypt=).

I think most cachers would agree with deleting pasted logs. Make a note on your cache page stating something to that effect. Make it something fun with the longest log, funniest, etc. Getting credit like a FTF would. I have a cache I'm working on now that will require a minimum of so many words in the found it log in order to claim the cache.

nonnipoppy
12-10-2007, 08:49 AM
First of all I feel your pain about not getting good logs. On every cache page we have we state:
"The only payment a cache owner receives is the log that you write on the cache page. We took the time to place the cache so please take the time to tell us about your experience."

We ourselves are guilty of short logs when "power caching" and that activity may be the culprit. Last Friday poppy and rkl snuck off to snag a few caches. We drove to Maumelle then worked our way back to Morrillton and eventually had to leave so that we could be at home for a social engagement nonni had scheduled. nonnipoppy found 41 caches, the next day when logging them an old muddled mind coupled with no typing skills made us created logs that were far to short and less than enjoyable to read. Perhaps we need to rethink our caching.

To answer your question YES you own the cache and have the right to delete any and all logs that you choose to, however; I can not see many positive outcomes from this action. It's just going to anger the finder and then some will retaliate. And then there is a new problem.

We decided to look past those cut and paste logs and enjoy the ones that truly tell a story. Sometimes we have to remind ourselves to step back, take a deep breath, and remember that this is still just a game and everyone plays differently.

Having said all that we had a great time seeking your caches....poppy

mbell72901
12-10-2007, 01:36 PM
It is a sticky situation about deleting logs just because it says "Thanks for the easy PNG. SL" If I see the cache when I get out of my car, there is just not much I can say.
I agree with one of the above posters that someone might get mad if you delete it. I have every cache I have found in a notebook(s) but very few have notes "found in tree" "magnet on sign", but the ones that I do write down "birdhouse hanging from fishing line" "bark glued to bison" "hole in bottom of rock" are the ones that I praise the cache owner for their neat idea. I remember 99% of the finds, if you remind me of the surroundings.
It is your call, but don't get mad if some one gets mad at you for deleting their log.
What people write or don't write on my hides don't break my heart when I read them, but I do admit I enjoy the "wordy" ones! LOL

Q
12-10-2007, 04:12 PM
Is their count altered when a log is deleted? I would never notice a missing post. I only check back on certain caches with a agenda in mind... curious where a TB went or something.

paris1time
12-10-2007, 08:11 PM
I have seen some debate on this subject in the past and I haven't weighed in too much.

I love geocaching and love that I can play it my way while everyone else plays it their way.

I have found and hidden caches. I enjoy reading logs and even enjoy reading logs posted by others. I really enjoy reading what others say about my hides and it is my reward for placing the cache.

My wife and daughter however leave it to me to log their finds on GC.com for them. I log their finds after logging my own and find it hard to put too many words into their mouth or into their logs for them. I am guilty of doing some cutting and pasting to log their finds and in the logs I refer the reader to my logs for more details.

We have chosen to have separate accounts on GC.com to keep up with our individuals finds because we do always all go caching together at the same time.

I believe that a deleted log will also take the find away from the cacher's total finds. In a way they will not be rewarded for the find but penalized for not being wordy or having unique logs for each find.

I don't think anything I have to say will end the debate :?

nonnipoppy
12-10-2007, 09:04 PM
Is their count altered when a log is deleted? I would never notice a missing post. I only check back on certain caches with a agenda in mind... curious where a TB went or something.

Yes a find will be deducted and the cacher will get a notification of the deletion.

OldRiverRunner
12-10-2007, 09:12 PM
Like others who have posted a reply here, I enjoy receiving a good log from a finder of one of my caches. But, like everyone else, I have received those short logs which a waste of electrons. I have sent nasty emails out in the past, but I have never deleted a log. If someone found it, they deserve the smiley, no matter how thoughtless they are.

A wise bearded man from Cacheville once told me about TBs, "Once you set them loose, forget them!" Bear with me, but I believe this logic applies to caches as well. Some will get muggled. And some will get inconsiderate logs. But life is too short to worry about such things. I have chosen to look past these slights and enjoy the logs of those who actually took time to express their thoughts, experiences, and gratitude. One of those logs is worth 10 logs of "TNLNSL. TFTC". And the writer of a good log is my friend forever, even if we have never met. Words are powerful and say a lot about the author. And the lack of words often speaks volumes. -- ORR

Dentful1
12-10-2007, 09:30 PM
:evil: Forgive me for I have sinned. I will admit to being one of those who from time to time to write short logs. BUT, I only had a limited amount of time to write those because I did not own a computer at the time, had to go to dads and use his. I now have a computer as of a couple of weeks ago and will definitely try my hardest to get back to writing meaningful logs. :mrgreen:

cachemates
12-10-2007, 09:57 PM
Over the Thanksgiving Holiday we went on a caching trip with rklmbl and woodwalker9 to the Tulsa area. One of the caches we found there (GCQ6PP) required you to write a interesting log or it would be deleted.

I have noticed at least one log deleted since we found it. You are told on the cache page what to expect if you do not follow the rules set by the cache owner. That is one way to got away from the TFTC logs.

We found over 100 caches on that trip and it took me over a week to get them all logged. It is hard sometimes to think of something to say for flim can that is not very well hidden, but still that cache owner deserves better than TFTC. In my opinion.

If it wasn't for the excellent notes that mbl and mrs cachemates write at each cache, I would never be able to remember each and every cache three day later. Keeping notes is the key for me.


Everyone does it their own way. We do too.

Geezer_Veazey
12-10-2007, 11:11 PM
I certainly agree that personalized logs are much more interesting and desirable than cut and paste logs. But look at it like this. Turn it around and ask yourself would you be happy if one of your logs was deleted because of an owners quirky personal preference. Suppose you didn't jump up and yell "Whoopie, I found it!" Would you want your log deleted? Suppose an owner had this thing about staying on the trail and not taking shortcuts. Would you want your log deleted.

Like ORR said, put it out there and let it go. Get back to basics. The object is to find. The log itself is not the object of the game.

Rather than fret about the cut and paste logs, spend more time on the more interesting logs. Send the cacher an email saying how much you appreciate their log. Many of them will respond with even more information or want to talk about some other subject. You soon will have email conversations going with people you have never met, and will not have time to mess with the one-liners.

End of sermon. I'm off my soap-box. I'm soon going to be looking for that "barnyard" cache. My imagination is running wild. Have a nice day.

searcykid
12-11-2007, 01:31 PM
Some of my cache hides are only PNG's and I know it and in some of my descriptions I say it is only a PNG. I don't expect anything more than a TFTC in the logs.

Even if I hide an ammo can with several dollars worth of swag and a well thought out hiding spot I am grateful for the cachers effort in looking and only a TFTC and whether they took or left something is ok with me.

However, it is very nice and an added bonus if someone does appreciate the effort and expense of hiding a cache and expresses that in there logs. I try to tell a little about my experience in finding certain caches and very much love to read about the other cachers experience in finding mine, but sometimes there is nothing to say except TFTC.

I personally would never delete a log simply because the finder is not eloguent in his/her logs. I appreciate every cacher who takes the time to look for one of my caches.

The_Griswolds
12-11-2007, 05:12 PM
This is my Geocaching pet peeve. There's nothing worse than a TFTC except maybe "#32 of 65 for the day". Generally, these type logs are from out of towners who are just in it for the numbers. I've thought about deleting logs myself, but like everyone says, it will just make them mad and won't really solve anything. It's not like they are going to change their evil ways and start writing essays.

I had a log deleted once myself. It was a Locationless Cache, back when they were still allowed, for a Confederate Soldier's Grave. I took a picture with my GPS and wrote a little bit about it. A month or so later, I got an email saying my log was deleted. No email from owner explaining why. When I emailed him and asked him why he said the cache page required that I be in the picture with the head stone and my GPS. I tried to explain that it was cold and rainy and even offered to send a picture of myself separately. He was adamant that it was his cache and his rules and he could delete it if he wanted. He also said he's deleted many logs and has been called every name in the book, including Cache Nazi, and that there wasn't anything I could do to phase him.

Needless to say, that left a bitter taste in my mouth. I would much rather live with some thoughtless logs than be anything like that guy. A By-The -Way to this episode was that in between finding that cache and having my log deleted, we found our 500th cache. By him deleting the log, my 500th cache is officially another Locationless rather than something unique. I would hate to have had that happen to my 1000th find.

TnT
12-11-2007, 05:22 PM
I think we've all been guilty of the "TFTC" types of logs. Lately, we've been trying to get better at saying something more in our logs. Having a partner who writes the logs in GSAK as we're heading to the next find certainly helps.

Cookie cutter logs are another of the many caching related things we've learned to ignore as we spend more time caching. With only guidelines and not rules, people are going to play the game the way that they enjoy. For some "TFTC" is all they're ever going to do. On the other hand, if you've ever had the pleasure of reading some of ninjaguy's logs, this is what everyone should strive for. He makes the log for the most mundane park and grab worth reading and usually it's quite amusing. For those of you who don't live in NorthWest Akansas, check out some of his logs for caches around the Fayetteville area.

As for deleting logs, if you read the groundspeak forums, you know that over the past 9 months or so, there is a new type of cache gaining popularity. It's called an ALR cache (Additional Logging Requirement). They're supposed to be listed under the "OTHER" cache type (the one usually used for puzzle caches), and lengthy logs COULD be one of the ALR requirements. In a situation like this, I would think the cache owner would be completely justified in deleting a log. He made it known right up front this was a requirement and the cache type was proper for what he wanted.

HikerRon
12-12-2007, 08:18 AM
guilty as charged. after big number days i cant even remember half the caches i found. copy and paste is my friend since i cant type. if i remember anything about the cache, i'll have a regular log. nothing lengthy from me unless it was exceptional in some way. but that's just me...
as for deleting logs, i do not delete a cacher's log, if they found the cache and signed the log.

flannelman
12-13-2007, 10:46 AM
I generaly try to leave a good log. Something I'd like to read if it were one of my caches. Even for the lamest PNG cache I can usually find something to comment on even if it has nothing to do with the cache. I usually have a notebook to keep track of my caching adventures but I think I'm going to start using my microcassette recorder to take voice notes on caches. I think that will be faster than writing down notes about the cache.

I usually just skim over the copy/paste logs on my caches and not give them another thought. The good loggers out there, and you know who you are, will often recieve an e-mail from me following up on the cache.

Lauri
12-13-2007, 11:27 AM
flannelman's strategy is mine. Even for PNG's I try to at least say why I was in the area, what the weather was like, or something. I'm also not much of a powercacher (yet anyway haha) so I don't do a ton in one day or weekend.

And yeah, TFTC type logs on my caches, I just delete the email and move on -- glad at least that someone was out keeping the game alive in Hot Springs (where all my caches are so far). However, I do immensely enjoy the longer logs -- especially by many of you. Being newer to the sport and hiding caches, if I get a good, appreciative log by folks like Team Panda or Cachemates -- well I feel like the geocaching gods of Arkansas have smiled on me! </gushing>

AR-HICK
12-14-2007, 09:10 AM
I would like to thank everyone who has posted on this thread. I am sure that I will get good logs from you :lol: . I have gotten quite a bit out of everyones post and that is what this is all about. I think I will start putting this on my cahes this to encourage everyone to write better logs.:

"Writing a good log will not make you a better cacher, but it might give you more respect from other cachers"

I still hate copy and pasted logs :evil:
A find is a find, and I shall turn the other cheek and try to be a better cacher and a better writer of logs myself. I do have a few :idea: Ideas :idea: that I got from this and I may put them into effect very soon.

HercMaster
01-14-2008, 09:34 AM
This topic reminded me of letters I would sometimes get from girlfriends while I was younger. You remember - those heady days when we would fall so deeply in love with someone (or something) that we absolutely thought we would die if we lost that person or that thing.

If the letter was lengthy, it would be bliss, I thought I was in heaven.

If the letter arrived perfumed, I would almost swoon! I would treasure THAT letter and go back and read it (and enjoy the sweet scent of it) again and again and again.

But if it was just a postcard, with only a few words jotted on it, you know what?

I would still treasure it. Because it, just like the more lengthy or fragrant communiques I sometimes received, still told me two things:

1) the author cared enough about something to write, and

2) the author cared not just about "something", but about *me*


Long or short, sweet or dry, it was still a pleasure to receive them.

BSA534
01-15-2008, 12:06 AM
Personally I find that as I've placed more caches and read more of their finders' logs that I put a lot more thought into the logs I write for the caches I find.

I don't have too many power caching days but I still log everything into my PDA and when I get home and actually visit the cache page it usually jogs my memory about the cache and I try to put some thought into writing the log. I also like to thank the cache owner for placing the cache and bringing me to a new location.

4wheeling-1
02-05-2008, 01:08 PM
here's what AR-HICK said, " Writing a good log will not make you a better cacher, but it might give you more respect from other cachers"

I still hate copy and pasted logs
A find is a find, and I shall turn the other cheek and try to be a better cacher and a better writer of logs myself. "
I definately turned the other cheek this morning when I got about 25 emails that said the same thing ( I assume), after about 7 or 8 of the same exact thing I just started deleting, WITH GEOFROG AS MY WITNESS I SHALL NEVER COPY AND PASTE A LOG UNLESS I OWE YOU ONE

AR-HICK
10-05-2008, 09:32 PM
Please for give me for I have sinned. I copy and pasted some logs. :oops:
OK, I owed the cache owner.
Does this make it right no, will I do it again maybe.
This subject has needed to be revised. He is little information if you don’t already know it.

I DON’T LIKE COPY AND PASTED LOGS!

I am starting to think that it is poor taste on the part of cachers who make this a common practice.

If you are a newbie please think about it.
1. I went to time and effort to place a cache for your enjoyment.
2. The only enjoyment I receive in return is YOUR log.
3. Is the cache page funny?
4. Do you know how to read? (Writing a good log will not make you a better cacher, but it might give you more respect from other cachers)
5. Are you capable of more than one thought at a time? (breathing counts)
6. “Logging by phone using Trimble software” What are you thinking? All you
are doing is advertising… (I have decided to keep the rest of this thought to myself.)

If you are
COPY and PASTING logs please quit. It does not show how much you like the cache or the area it was hidden. Tell me of your adventures, did someone stub their toe? Did an old man walking a dog give you a strange look?
I am not expecting to read essays on caching, but it would be nice to here about the laugh you got when you found a surprise (did you step in something left behind by an animal) or a cache.
I know that several cache hiders feel the same way and it show that you enjoyed and put forth an effort to thank them for finding there cache.

QuartzCachers
10-06-2008, 06:06 AM
Hick, I couldn't agree more! If I find one or if I find one hundred, I refuse to copy and paste! It may take me four days to log all of them (and it often does). I find that folks appreciate a nice log and will remember you and what you wrote, more often than you think.
In the Hot Springs area, I get a lot of copy and paste, I guess, because it is such a tourist area. People, I think, don't feel the need to do anything but TFTC or something similar, when they are out of their home area. Yes, it always nice that someone found my cache, but I know good and well, that if it didn't make that number beside their name go up, they wouldn't take the time to aknowledge it at all! I feel a little taken advantage of sometimes. Oh well, I guess it is still worth it when I get a nice one from someone occasionally, but I think Hick is right on here. :)

HikerRon
10-07-2008, 09:27 AM
get over it. the world these days revolves on cut & paste. i do it sometimes myself after a big # of finds. heck, on those days i cant even remember half the caches i'm logging:)
yes, you have the right to delete it, but i dont think you should.
they found it, they get to log it. regardless of what they write in the log.
i think an email to the finder before you delete it would be the correct course of action.
i get suspicious logs too.....like 'found six months ago and just now logging'. but i
'm not gonna rush out there and check to see if they signed the log 6 months ago. usually, when i replace a logbook i dont even read it. unless it's a regular sized logbook.
the whole sport is based on honesty. there's nothing to prevent someone from just sitting down and logging all of 'em.
but i'm getting off topic arent i?

BSA534
10-07-2008, 03:30 PM
"Found using Garmin' GPSMap 60CSx with coordinates downloaded from the Geocaching Swiss Army Knife into a Palm TX and logged using Mozilla Firefox on Dell's Inspiron 1505E and a wireless Logitech Laser Mouse while sitting on a Sofa Mart couch - TFTC"

QuartzCachers
10-07-2008, 05:53 PM
As far as deleting a log, because I don't like it, I wouldn't do that. I would feel a little cheated and shortchanged, but I wouldn't delete it. I would just wait till someone else who writes up something nice comes along and enjoy that. I know I shouldn't, but I think a little less of someone when I go to my inbox, and there are ten or twenty logs that all say the exact same thing. I would delete them from my inbox without reading more than a couple, but not the cache page.
On a related matter, I got a suspicious found it notice on my favorite cache. My signature cache, if you will. It is called "Shame On Me". Usually I get some nice comments on it. Last week, I got one that said: found this on as a test for my new gps. That kinda made me think that this person didn't really find it. When I checked the log, nope. Not signed. This may be the first one I delete. I have sent an E-mail to this cacher, asking for a description, but I'll bet I won't get an accurate one. Any advice from anyone else with experience on this? Technically, I feel that I am right on this, but I wonder if I should just let it go. :?:

oenavigator
10-07-2008, 10:08 PM
I know that many may disagree but AR-HICK is 100% right. Your online log is the reward for the cache owner for his/her/their time and effort undertaken in hiding said cache.

I doubt there are any among us who, after hiding their first cache, would be jumping for joy after reading TFTC in their email notification. After time you get used to it but it still leaves you feeling like you were cheated in some way or that maybe your cache just wasn't that good.

Writing an online log isn't hard. The reason logbooks exist at all is to share your experience with the cache owner and other geocachers. Are you new to the game and had a hard time finding it? Maybe you spotted it a mile away. Was it clever? Did the weather hamper your efforts or add to a good day? Even if you're out "powercaching" and found so many you can't remember diddly-squat about the cache. Say something about your day. Did you reach your goal? If not why? How many did you find? Were you alone? Was this your first visit to the area and what drew you here?

From what I've read about geocaching in the beginning the game was played much differently. The game has changed with better technology and will likely continue to do so in the future. Irregardless of how easy it is to download caches and even log them remotely, the best thing about this game is and has always been the community. This game started from a community of GPS enthusiasts and one guy with a crazy idea. It revolves around the community, not cut and paste logs.

So take a minute to tell us about your adventure. Share your successes and failures with us. The smiles you collect may not show in your profile, but they'll be on the face of every other member of this community.

AR-HICK
10-07-2008, 10:29 PM
EONavigator wrote
So take a minute to tell us about your adventure. Share your successes and failures with us. The smiles you collect may not show in your profile, but they'll be on the face of every other member of this community.
AMEN
Thanks for a good post, I was begining to think I was alone on this.

Is it OK if you make your adventure a little bigger than it actually was?
:lol:

BSA534
10-08-2008, 09:57 AM
I've learned a lot from reading logs from good log writers like AR-Hick and RKLMBL and many others. I don't expect much from a tram-law or simple p&g but I do like to read more when its a cache that requires some real effort to obtain. Seems to me some of the best log writers are those that have quite a few hides as well.

QuartzCachers
10-08-2008, 01:06 PM
Leave it to OEnavigators to hit the nail on the head. Well said Dude! :D

rklmbl
10-09-2008, 08:26 AM
AR HICK and OENavigator make valid points about some cachers' lack of courtesy/ability in logging caches. But, I doubt if this thread can change the world. Wish it could. We believe everyone should play the geo-game as they want but they should also know that their actions can/may/will be judged by others. We appreciate Groundspeak identifying the cachers that find our caches because, over the years, we have learned who writes TFTC logs and we just delete them. We look forward to reading the logs of some cachers and they make the work and expense of placing cache worthwhile. We know that certain cachers will only do the bare minimum to earn their smileys. But we also know there are truly great ambassadors of this game out there and you know who you are. As Forrest Gump says, "That's all I have to say about that." rkl

"I wonder if people who are illiterate have problems eating Alphabet Soup."

OldRiverRunner
10-09-2008, 09:37 AM
This has been an interesting discussion and given me a lot to think about. In the past, I haven't worried too much about TFTC or pasted logs, just figuring that the cacher did not have good manners. But it seems like these types of logs have become a lot more common. And this is troubling to me.

Now, I think that the quality of the log should be proportional to the quality of the cache, or at least the experience in finding the cache. I really think that some caches don't deserve much more than a TFTC log. I know I am in the minority here, but once you've found one light pole or fire hydrant hide, there is nothing really much to write about.

Regarding the deletion of logs, it has been my assumption that when one deletes a Found It log, it reduces the smiley count of the finder by 1. In other words, it eliminates the credit for the find. Does anyone know if this is true? If so, it could be a tool of every cache owner to let the poor log writers that they can't get credit for the find unless they put out some effort, too.

Gaddiel
10-09-2008, 10:31 AM
Now, I think that the quality of the log should be proportional to the quality of the cache.

That's true. If someone hides an LPC (lamp post cache) or a fire-hydrant cache, I think it would be a little unrealistic for them to expect to see great logs on it. You might see them, but it shouldn't be expected.

On the other hand, it would be very surprising to find a TFTC on a 5/5, wouldn't it?

Wayne

TnT
10-09-2008, 04:04 PM
Regarding the deletion of logs, it has been my assumption that when one deletes a Found It log, it reduces the smiley count of the finder by 1. In other words, it eliminates the credit for the find. Does anyone know if this is true? If so, it could be a tool of every cache owner to let the poor log writers that they can't get credit for the find unless they put out some effort, too.

Yep, the deletion of "found it" logs does reduce the smiley count by one. I have had to delete "found it" logs on some of our caches before when people have claimed more than one find. (Don't believe in it - won't allow it on our caches. How others play with their finds/found caches is up to them)

However, in the long run it doesn't really hurt the finder. In many cases legitimate finds get deleted over silly stuff -- personality conflicts, etc., and the person whose logs were deleted will just post a "found it" to one of their own caches or something similar to get their found count back to where they think it should be.

And then, as much as we all hate copy and paste logs, as cache owners do we really have much reason to delete the finds if the caches aren't ALR (additional logging requirement) caches?

Thinking about it though, I think those of us who have been caching for a while are largely to blame. As ORR has admitted and I'll admit now, we've all done the copy and paste thing.

Nowadays, I try (and when I'm mentoring somebody, I tell them to) at least say something unique about each find. "was out with the family", "we often eat just down the street", "trying to get to 200 today, this was one". Anything but TFTC, which is reserved for caches that should have been archived before they were published.

My 2.5 cents worth.

OldRiverRunner
10-09-2008, 08:38 PM
As ORR has admitted and I'll admit now, we've all done the copy and paste thing.

I don't think I said that! 8O And I didn't mean to imply it! :D I don't think I've ever done a "cut and paste" log, at least as a complete duplication. I've cut & pasted portions, but then I've added unique comments for each cache. Admittedly, some of my logs have been MUCH shorter than others. (See above for discussion of the proportionality of log quality with cache quality.)


Nowadays, I try (and when I'm mentoring somebody, I tell them to) at least say something unique about each find. "was out with the family", "we often eat just down the street", "trying to get to 200 today, this was one". Anything but TFTC, which is reserved for caches that should have been archived before they were published.AMEN !!!

oenavigator
10-10-2008, 02:34 PM
There's a fantastic "How To" at Geocacher University which helped me and I'm sure would be very beneficial to any geoacher wanting to write better online logs entitled Writing Great Online Logs (http://geocacher-u.com/content/view/14/33/).

I don't like to pass judgment on other cachers hides. I don't think I'm qualified and, in addition, there are just far too many ways to play this game. I know it can be hard to write a log about a park and grab type cache but you did decide to hunt it and should write a little something. I do understand that can be difficult for some geocachers. We're very blessed in the fact that geocaching with the kids is ALWAYS an adventure of some sort. Heck a recent drive to the river just to check out a possible fishing spot resulted in a trip to the emergency room. So, needless to say, I always have something to write about. :lol:

I've recently been trying to write more in the logbook also. I have a hand-carved stamp we use to stamp an image above our entry. Just a little something for the cache owner. There's a geocacher by the name of Kit Fox that has "Lead by Example" as his signature. I really liked that and believe we could all try to do the same. No, we won't change the world. But we will have a positive impact. We could lead by example. Maybe we could get AR-HICK to give classes at events or something. :lol:

TnT
10-10-2008, 03:50 PM
As ORR has admitted and I'll admit now, we've all done the copy and paste thing.

I don't think I said that! 8O And I didn't mean to imply it! :D I don't think I've ever done a "cut and paste" log, at least as a complete duplication. I've cut & pasted portions, but then I've added unique comments for each cache. Admittedly, some of my logs have been MUCH shorter than others. (See above for discussion of the proportionality of log quality with cache quality.)


Nowadays, I try (and when I'm mentoring somebody, I tell them to) at least say something unique about each find. "was out with the family", "we often eat just down the street", "trying to get to 200 today, this was one". Anything but TFTC, which is reserved for caches that should have been archived before they were published.AMEN !!!

My apologies. In my defense, I was trying to say we all do the portions of cut and paste. I don't think we've ever done complete cut and pastes either, but may have. It's hard to remember everything at my age.

4wheeling-1
10-13-2008, 11:21 AM
I have not had a lot of input on this or any thread but this is the one that has got my goat, a cacher that goes by the name "David vs Goliath" logged 4 of my caches "SL", it irritated me but oh well, then another cacher was talking about it and I got steamed again and posted this on all my caches
ALL OF MY CACHES ARE NOT "ROCKET SCIENCE" BUT THEY ARE MY CACHES.
I LIKE HIDING CACHES ALMOST AS MUCH AS I LIKE FINDING THEM. I ALSO
LIKE SHOWING MY APPRECIATION TO OTHER CACHERS THAT HIDE A CACHE
FOR ME TO FIND, "SL" AND COPY-PASTE IS NOT HOW TO DO THAT. I HATE TO
BE RUDE (NOT REALLY) BUT IF ALL I GET IS "SL" OR IF YOU COPY-PASTE A
LOG ON ONE OF MY CACHES STARTING TODAY, 10-13-2008, IT WILL BE
DELETED. I HAVE HIGH HOPES YOU WILL SHOW ALL CACHERS A LITTLE
RESPECT WHEN LOGGING YOUR FINDS. I DON'T THINK I'M ASKING TOO
MUCH, 4 OR 5 WORDS AND WE'RE ALL HAPPY. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR
LOOKING FOR MY CACHES, BE SAFE AND HAPPY CACHING!!!!!!
After doing that, thinking I was being fair to David vs Goliath, I find out that some of the caches they logged they never signed, I went to check it out and sure enough, "SL" does not stand for "signed log", maybe it stands for "saw location", David vs Goliath had signed NOTHING, I came home and immediately deleted the four logs they had posted on my caches, and yes, they went from 622 finds down to 618, if David vs Goliath has logged any of your caches I doubt very seriously they have actually been there, I agree that a log should kinda match the cache, I do not expect a great log on one my firehydrant caches but I do expect something different, GOOD DAY[/b]

cfd29
10-13-2008, 02:22 PM
You are exactly right 4 wheelin, I saw all those SL logs also and it made me mad and none of them were my caches, they logged a bunch more in the area besides yours. Some places they might get away with that, but after one time, someone brings it to everyone's attention, then everyone else knows to take a close look.
We go out to actually FIND a cache, even if it is a lamp post or anything, there is always something new to every one and we enjoy every one we find no matter how easy or difficult. Each cache brings us to a new place, most of the time somewhere we have never been, and we appreciate them..

paris1time
10-13-2008, 03:49 PM
I have not had a lot of input on this or any thread but this is the one that has got my goat, a cacher that goes by the name "David vs Goliath" logged 4 of my caches "SL",...

Last week I had most of my caches logged by this same cacher (David Vs Goliath). They logged every single find "SL". I looked at their profile and that is they way they log all caches. In fact they logged a "Will Attend" to our event in January. They only thing written on their "Will Attend" was "1", which I took as meaning their would be one in their party attending.

I was going to stay out of this thread until this part was mentioned.

It does my heart well when people use more than a few words to log my caches online, but I have always gone by the thought that everyone plays the game their own way. I don't feel that a 1000 word or 1 word online log should be evidence of being able to claim a "Found it". If someone finds the cache they should be able to claim a find. I feel the only exception to this is as mentioned before "Additional Logging Requirements".

I also know some cachers that are not the best at writing and don't know how to really put some of their thoughts into words.

This thread has inspired me to place a cache possibly...

:evil:

cfd29
10-13-2008, 04:14 PM
I would be curious to know when you check your caches if they are on the logs there, or not, like on 4 wheeling 1's.
:D

AR-HICK
10-13-2008, 04:56 PM
I was a little mad when I saw the "SL" log on my caches. I sent "David vs Goliath" an email about writing logs telling of their adventures hunt caches.
No response from them and it has been almost 24 hours.

Then I checked my caches they supposedly found, NO signature.
I will be contacting other cacher owners asking them to check their caches for signatures and asking them to delete them if the have not signed the log sheet.
Don't be surprised when you see a email from me.

If you have received a log from them please check your cache and delete their finds from your caches if you can not find a signature on them. They are not playing the game correctly and this is the only way I know teaching them a lesson. I never seen this coming when I restarted this thread. I may even post on the GC fourms later this week if I don't hear from the culprit. :evil:

I don't like this but I am kinda upset over the deal.
I just drove a 1000 miles this weekend visiting the Parkcache series and I assure you that I was everywhere I will log. I signed each log with pride of being there and finding the cache. No copy and paste from me on any of them, they deserve so much more than I can express in words in my logs.

AMEN, 4Wheeling-1 you are preaching to the choir in Conway County.

cfd29
10-13-2008, 05:32 PM
AMEN Hick,, I noticed on their count they had 640 somthing finds Sat but they are down to 550 now, hmmm guess some more are finding out what is going on...

Hope you had a good trip, glad I didn't have to bother you anymore on Sat. I put my glasses on and was able to find a few more caches all by myself, uhh well, with Deb's help of course :oops:

4wheeling-1
10-13-2008, 07:20 PM
paris1time had the following to say,
It does my heart well when people use more than a few words to log my caches online, but I have always gone by the thought that everyone plays the game their own way. I don't feel that a 1000 word or 1 word online log should be evidence of being able to claim a "Found it". If someone finds the cache they should be able to claim a find. I feel the only exception to this is as mentioned before "Additional Logging Requirements".

I agree with paris1time, I am playing the game my own way and I am implementing "Additional Logging Requirements". It seems like most of the people that log a "SL" or copy-paste their logs don't have many, IF ANY, hides. I suppose I have been spoiled by some REAL GEOCACHERS that do appreciate someone hiding a cache, here's the sad part, we're actually having this conversation, the REAL GEOCACHERS I have dealt with would never even think of logging a "SL". Finding a cache is only a small part of the game, the other cachers is what makes this sport awesome, it's not that I demand a long drawn out log, no one does, but the easiest, lamest, most meaningless cache deserves more than "SL". [/quote]

oenavigator
10-13-2008, 07:54 PM
I posted a notice about this cacher over in the NWA Cachers forums. I checked their profile and they were claiming finds on archived caches in California. Apparently they seek out areas that they believe they can get away with it. It's obviously the sock puppet account of another geocacher doing this for whatever reason. They should know that when you play that way in Arkansas it won't work. I also think groundspeak should be notified so this member can be banned.

I have to applaud AR-HICK and 4wheelin-1 for their initiative on this. You can discuss back and forth forever about logs and quality of caches. When it gets right down to it, it's just plain impolite to not write something. I'm going to follow 4wheelin-1's lead and post something about logs on all our caches. If enough cachers do the same I think there will be a positive influence on new geocachers. It will at least do away with the "monkey see, monkey do" that seems to be rampant.

[edited for speeling. LOL]

paris1time
10-13-2008, 09:13 PM
I am going to be checking on my caches to see if "David Vs. Goliath" actually signed any of the log sheets for my caches. I wonder if there is suppose to be some type of meaning behind their geocaching nickname. :?:

I do try my best to write a good online log. I recently ran "My Finds" on a stat generator and noticed that it put my average number of words used for an online log at 94.6 words. I like to think that I do a good job of having something to say even about a PNG.

I have read many of the logs of the cachers who have posted in this thread and I often enjoy reading them. It is cachers like you that will continue to motivate me to hide caches.

I said earlier everyone plays the game their own way, but I also believe the cache hider has a right to place "Additional Logging Requirements" on their caches. I think if someone finds it and does not complete the additional logging requirements as listed in the cache listing the cache owner has a right to delete the log. The cacher should never go looking for that cache unless they plan on living up to the logging requirements.

jclaudii
10-14-2008, 07:55 AM
I guess I'll throw some thoughts out there on the David vs. Goliath thing. I saw where they posted a SL, but I know the log is full on this particular cache. I guess I'll go replace the log and if there name is nowhere to be seen, I'll delete their entry.

I wonder if we can have Chuck Walla pull some strings and find out how legit this particular account is. I'm sure groundspeak can find some reason to ban and delete the account. Hopefully they have a way to remove every entry that this particular user has made from the database, which would save us all from deleting their find.

As far as log entry's, I really do think it depends on the particular cache and it's location. We usually try to write a bit more in the physical log about how our day is going, the weather, wildlife, traffic, etc. We love reading others entry on the physical log. I have never had too big of a problem with people just typing SL or TFTC on the online log, they usually make a sentence at least. I'm guessing if you would like a more detailed log, request that in both your physical log info page and your online summary. This will hopefully get their attention enough to remember and type something unique about their trip/find. The better the cache/find adventure/location, the better the log quality usually with us. Some of our caches require a bit of effort to get to, which hopefully is the reason we've had good luck with logs.

On another note. What are "Logging historical geocache travel miles" I've seen these posted on a few of my caches by Captain Atom?

oenavigator
10-14-2008, 10:21 AM
On another note. What are "Logging historical geocache travel miles" I've seen these posted on a few of my caches by Captain Atom?

It looks as though he is using a travel bug to keep track of all the miles that he's traveled while geocaching. Just dipping it in caches he has already visited. Pretty neat idea. You should see how many miles he's gone also. WOW! Here's the link to Captain Atom's Geo-mileage (http://www.geocaching.com/track/details.aspx?id=269820).

Nukeworker
10-14-2008, 10:41 AM
AR-Hick has just e-mailed us about the "David and Goliath" cacher that has signed the logs with "SL". We have at least one logged this way, so we will head out to the cache and check to see if it has been physically signed. I just don't understand the motivation of someone doing this! Thanks to Hick for the heads up.
We have tried from day one to always write something of meaning on the logs. We apologize if we have let anyone down. It is fun to read people's logs when they have found your cache. We so appreciate every single hidden cache that we have had the pleasure of finding. After living in AR so 17 years, caching has introduced us to areas we would never have located any other way. We appreciate all the creativity, work, and committment to keeping caches active. Thank you to all who have a cache hidden. This thread has been a good reminder to all of us as to how much the logs mean to the owner. We pledge to always try and write decent logs when we log a find. Happy Caching, Racquetball Girl

paris1time
10-14-2008, 01:14 PM
RE: David Vs. Goliath

I have been contacted by two other out of state geocachers who stated that they had caches logged by David Vs. Goliath and when they checked their physical logs there were no log entries for them. They also said in their e-mail that they have also contacted Groudspeak about them.

I am going to check some of my physical logs as soon as possible on the finds that David Vs. Goliath has claimed of mine.

I also noticed that since last night many of David Vs. Goliath finds have been deleted and since last night the following now appears on their GC.com profile:

Since some of you have a problem with my finding your caches, I will appease you with some info. I am a truck driver and world traveler. I sign my logs as DVG. Sometimes others in our family will also log under DVG. I rarely post my finds any time near the date that I log them. I don't keep that close of a watch on dates and I don't always (read: not often) have access to a computer. I don't always put a date on the log, and if I am in a rush to get out of a city I don't always sign the logs. If you feel that I need to sign it, as the owner, you have a right to ask that. I have fun finding them and am not a numbers cacher, I just like the hunt. The smiley only Helps me to know which ones that I found so next time I come through town, I don't have to look again. I only will post SL, I don't have enough time with the computer to write much else. We all play the game differently. I am happy enough to find your caches, if you grant me the smiley, you are helping me to not repeat myself. Thanks to all that can let me play my way. Have a good day.

DVG

TnT
10-14-2008, 03:44 PM
On another note. What are "Logging historical geocache travel miles" I've seen these posted on a few of my caches by Captain Atom?

It looks as though he is using a travel bug to keep track of all the miles that he's traveled while geocaching. Just dipping it in caches he has already visited. Pretty neat idea. You should see how many miles he's gone also. WOW! Here's the link to Captain Atom's Geo-mileage (http://www.geocaching.com/track/details.aspx?id=269820).

We were doing this for awhile, but then FSG came along. I wonder how close his mileage compares with that that FSG provides?

AR-HICK
10-14-2008, 04:47 PM
I have read DVG's profile and it think this an attempt to retain what is left of his supposed finds. He has lost over a 100 finds in a couple of days.
I did not see DVG or anything else that remotely resembled it on my caches that I checked.
He has made no attempt to reply to me on the emails I have sent to him.
I have deleted his smileys and until it is proven to me by descriptive log.
I will delete any attempt by him or any other cacher to log my finds without doing so. Once it is placed on the cache page by the end of this week all copy and pasted logs will be deleted on my caches.
This is how I chose to play the game and if I can turn a few cachers around, this is my intent. If you copy and paste logs don't attempt my caches.

My only other choice will be archiving my caches, this is not something that I want to do. This is a terriable statement to make and I don't like doing it, you may judge me as harsh. Fine, but you can copy and paste somewhere else.

AR-HICK
Mike Beavers
ar1hick@hotmail.com

majii
10-15-2008, 07:58 AM
I was warned twice yesterday, by AR-HICK and a caching team in Oklahoma City, about David vs Goliath and his bogus finds. I haven't gotten a chance to check my paper logs yet, but I definitely plan to on this one.

As for the original subject, I'm certain I'm not the best at writing online logs, but I haven't done a copy/paste job since my first 20 or so finds. I may sometimes write the same or similar logs for different caches, but I make sure I type them all out as I go. I blame my power caching for my terse logs. It can take a couple of hours to write even short logs for 50 finds... Plus I'm nowhere near as creative as some here. So there are my excuses. :)

oenavigator
10-15-2008, 11:40 AM
I'm in the process of adding the following to all our caches. I thought I'd post it here and get some input on it from the rest of the membership:

Your log is our reward for placing this cache. Take a minute to share your experience with us and the rest of the geocaching community. We appreciate your opinion and your fellow geocachers will enjoy reading about your hunt.

I had to delete a log on one of our caches today after two repeated attempts to have a finder edit their log. It was on our "All Hail the Queen" (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=4930c863-ba9c-4ea8-8f20-da8bae796151)cache at Queen Wilhelmina State Park. It just deserves, as does every cache, better than TFTC. I really don't expect a novella every time some logs one of our caches but at least a sentence would be nice. Even a fragmented one. Anything. :lol:

AR-HICK
10-15-2008, 06:49 PM
Your log is our reward for placing this cache. Take a minute to share your experience with us and the rest of the geocaching community. We appreciate your opinion and your fellow geocachers will enjoy reading about your hunt.
EONavigators

I think that is a good one. I have tried to be nice and it has not worked.
Here is mine:
If you Copy and Paste your logs it will be deleted. I ask that you to write a log telling a little about your adventure while hunting this cache. Due to a recent problem with a cacher not logging my cache and claiming it as a find, I am requiring this from everyone. If you think that Copy and Paste Logging is appropriate don’t hunt my caches. I own these caches and I have the right to delete your log for any reason. I think writing a good log is my payment for placing a cache for you to find. Lets both get smileys and write a little something on your log.

I may revise it a little more but that is the jest of it.
Ar-Hick

cfd29
10-15-2008, 07:32 PM
I sure don't see any problem with that, I (we) always try to write something when we log our caches, if we found a bunch, then it make take a couple of sessions in logging them, lord knows I am no great scribe of the english language, but I put something down, my younger daughter usually looks in on my logs and then tells me to correct my grammar, but heck, I think most people understand what I was trying to say. When we first started this, I was guilty of some "Found it" logs, but after reading a bunch a few years ago, the light turned on and I realized that in a way, the on line log is some of the most fun of this game..
I have seen some that caused me to laugh so hard I fell out of my chair, I just wish I could do so good. So,, we will just keep on trying to find caches and do our best to write a log, entertaining or not, I never copy and paste, the glue is just too messy.....
:o

SJClimber
10-15-2008, 07:58 PM
Writing a log on an interesting find is as much fun as the hunt. A tip already posted on the forum in the past; those using GSAK can write logs as they travel about and download once online. As for DVG, the person appears to be an outlyer. Wonder if printing logging restrictions is worth the effort for a very few like this individual?? Oh well...Onward

AR-HICK
10-15-2008, 10:48 PM
Everyone who has posted on this thread I don't have a problem with their logging skills. CFD 29 found one of mine last week and I busted a gut when I read it. Thanks Clark I really needed that.
I really think it is the newbie’s that pose the real problem (Copy and Paste) and my efforts to do this are to help them understand what a well written log can give to everyone who reads it much enjoyment. I read logs on caches that I have found not all of them but I do read logs to see if the are funny and sometimes for hints, I rarely leave any myself while logging.
I have been wrong before and I may change my mind on down the road, but for now I will continue down the path I have chosen. I have 2 goals is doing this:
1. Not receiving Copy and pasted logs.
2. Show the newbie’s that there is more to logging than just signing the logsheet and
telling the cache owner that you found it.

Who among us likes reading 10 “TFTC” logs by the same cacher.

I bet that I can teach a squirrel to do that. In case you don’t know it a squirrel is not that smart in the animal kingdom. Whales and Dolphins keep shorting out the keyboard, flippers are not made for keys and Elephants can’t sit at the computer desk.
Yes, I have used TFTC but only after I have written something and I don’t copy and paste well there was a time or two and it was payback for what they had done to me. I am petty, not pretty.

oenavigator
10-16-2008, 07:43 AM
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd117/oEnavigator/squirrel_keyboard.jpg

I couldn't help myself. :lol: I really think AR-HICK is right on with this topic. With the push for more and more caches and more and more finds the little things like logging your find online are falling behind. What was shorthand at the end of a log has become the log itself. I bet you could even find quite a few cachers who would prefer to do away with logs. Just click "found it."

I recently received an email from a cacher whose cache we had found over the weekend. They thanked us for our log and told us how much they enjoyed it. We all owe cache owners more than copy and paste. It's their efforts and creativity that keep this game going.

idratherbehiking
10-16-2008, 03:47 PM
A couple of years ago I had an out of state cacher that found a couple of my caches that I had hidden in Little Rock and all he put on the log was a period (.) I emailed him and he said he just did not have time to write anything but wanted to get them logged so he would not forget which ones he found. About a week later he had edited them and wrote a few sentences on each one. I really have not thought too much about this issue over the years but after reading more of this thread I totally agree that it is just a courtesy that should be practiced to repay the cache hider for their efforts. I don't recall copying and pasting in the past but if I did I am truly sorry and it will never happen again. I will copy and paste certain sentences and then add a little info for each individual cache. I will try and be a better Log Writer in the future. My average log length is 44 words and my longest log ever was 495 words.


"Even if something is left undone, everyone must take time to sit still and watch the leaves turn."
- Elizabeth Lawrence

TnT
10-16-2008, 03:52 PM
Was browsing the logs on a cache just now and came across this one. It was written in the on-line log of a Wal-Mart LPC cache. The cacher has well over 600 finds. Its quite simple, but more than enough, I think, to satisfy most cache owners.


I was out geocaching, with my friend Don Ellis, after church and dinner on a Sunday afternoon, when I found this one. I like these P&Gs and trying to stay stealthy. Everything was in good shape. TNLN SL

flannelman
10-16-2008, 10:08 PM
I never copy and paste logs and I never will.
I never copy and paste logs and I never will.
I never copy and paste logs and I never will.

Even on the lamest of lame caches I write something even if I have to lie through my teeth. I never copy and paste logs and I never will. I love to read the logs from my caches, well the online ones anyway. I don't care what ya write in the paper log just as long as ya log it with something that will identify that you were there. I never copy and paste logs and I never will. Anyway, if I ever get to cache again I'll be ready to write away whatever I may see or dream up on my head, but I never copy and paste logs and I never will. :D :D :D

ChuckWalla
04-08-2009, 08:19 PM
See new topic on removal of additional logging requirement (ALR) caches.

Chuck Walla
Geocaching.com Volunteer Cache Reviewer

AR-HICK
04-08-2009, 09:15 PM
:x :evil: :x :evil: :x :evil: :x :evil: :x :evil: :x :evil: :x

I think everyone knows how I feel now.
Hick as to do some serious thinking about this.
Feel free to submit your feelings on this matter.
My true feelings cannot be put on this Forum.

Ar-Hick

QuartzCachers
04-09-2009, 06:12 AM
Hick, I am like you, in that I love getting a nice log for my efforts in placing caches. With all the effort you go to, in creating and placing caches, you should always get great logs for them. I have come to the conclusion, however, that there are a lot of self centered and selfish people out there, who don't care anything about the person who placed these caches. I think they just believe that the Big Giant Head or some other entity placed these, and that they can just complain or write whatever they want to, or don't want to.
Here is the deal the way I see it. If we demand, with the threat of log deletion, for someone to write something that they don't really feel, then we don't know someones true feelings or experience with our cache. When someone writes up something that pleases us, and it comes because they WANTED to say it, then I really feel good about that, and that person. It doesn't have to be a big, long winded log always, although that is nice sometimes. A few of the right words, can be just fine for me.
In short, I cherish the people who take the time and care to write something nice on my cache pages, and I don't have time for those who don't.
Just my two cents worth dude. :D :D :D

arkfiremedic
04-09-2009, 08:23 AM
I agree that it is nice to come home and have several nice logs to read about your hides. I know you have asked me about it before, QC, but some people are NOT happy with anything you hide or how you hid it- regardless. :evil: Yes it is aggravating :evil: , and yes I have considered before (after a couple of comments on my caches that were negative) to just disable them all :evil: . BUT, when you receive kind words from people about your hides, especially those people who really know good hides, those with 1000 or 2000 or more hides, you really feel good and WANT to hide more :D . I can honestly say that before the event in El Dorado in February that I was to the point of archiving all my caches due to a negative "finder" in the area that always has something negative to say about everything. But when I had over 300 emails when you guys left with positive things and praise for my caches it inspired me to hide more and more and I have more to hide still yet. I just have to consider the source I guess. My experience also is that the people who are most critical of your hides have not hidden any or just a few caches. :roll: Thanks- I feel better now. :wink:

Gaddiel
04-09-2009, 11:31 AM
This is one of those "letter of the law" vs. "spirit of the law" circumstances. Sure, I'd much rather read a log written by someone who enjoyed themselves and is writing to share their experience. However, I also realize that, even though you would like to, you simply cannot force this. In other words, while you can make someone obey the "letter" of the rule, you can't make them like it.

The way I look at it is that if a cacher is only writing a long log (or ANY log for that matter) only to get the smiley, I'd probably rather not read it anyways...

Just my $.02

Wayne

flannelman
04-09-2009, 06:31 PM
I really don't like cut and paste or TFTC only logs. I hide caches in areas that are interesting or in intersting ways and I'd like to see how the finder liked the area or find. I don't delete their logs but you can bet I won't be too worried about it when they complain or need help finding a cache. If you don't care enough about the hunt to write a good log then I don't care about helping you get a smilie. I might just start doing away with hints on my caches and make everyone earn that smilie.